Re: IN SYMPATHY to the Hale-Bopp Cooperative

Article: <5fmo1q$gdc@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>
From: saquo@ix.netcom.com(Nancy )
Subject: Re: IN SYMPATHY to the Hale-Bopp Cooperative
Date: 6 Mar 1997 15:32:10 GMT

In article <5fimoa$gg2@news.Hawaii.Edu> Dave Tholen writes:
>> The issue of a tightened eccentricity at the time when the
>> orbit of Hale-Bopp was SIMULTANEOUSLY being given
>> a leap away from Jupiter of 3 arc minutes, which would
>> give Hale-Bopp a WIDENED, not tightened eccentricity,
>> ZetaTalk[TM]
>
> Don Yeomans didn't say anything about the comet leaping away
> from Jupiter. That's strictly your misinterpretation of the orbital
> elements.

(Begin ZetaTalk[TM])
Explain, oh Great Astronomer David Tholen, why Don Yeomans IN HIS OWN WORDS, stated that Hale-Bopp was at Dec -15 on May 28, 1996 (close to Jupiter at Dec -22 on that date), and a month later decided his observation was WRONG and that Hale-Bopp was 3 arc minutes AWAY from Jupiter on May 28, at Dec -12. You've been trying to avoid this, mumbling around, but as this was posted by JPL themselves, by the same individual, who stated this was per observations, there can hardly be an excuse. Avoidance doesn't cut it. Address the blaring facts! You've been implying that a 3 dimensional system would explain all that away, knowing that few amateurs can afford such a system and operate in an Internet environment where two dimensional shareware is available to them to download for free. So since they can't double check your mumbling and vague excuses, let’s examine this from a logical point of view.

• Looking out toward Jupiter between May 28 and June 27, both Jupiter and the mythical Hale-Bopp were close to RA 19, so motion on this gradient does not enter into the issue. The leap away was not to the right or left, but UPWARD, toward the zero declination line. The RA, applicable for both dates and both bodies, is therefore irrelevant.

• Looking out toward Jupiter on May 28, the observer from Earth is seeing an approaching Hale-Bopp, or so the story went, on the move toward Earth as well as upward. On May 28, JPL posted Orbital Elements which had Hale-Bopp at Dec -15, only 7 arc minutes above Jupiter at Dec -22. USE DEC -15 AS POINT HB-Y1, applicable for May 28/Hale-Bopp, the Y coordinate.

• Looking out toward Jupiter on the revised May 28, the observer from Earth is supposedly seeing that Hale-Bopp is now at Dec -12, having leapt 3 arc minutes above its former positions. Blink and it perturbs AWAY from Jupiter at Dec -22, per JPL. Note that the revised Y coordinate, HB-Y2 is further AWAY from Jupiter. USE DEC -12 AS POINT HB-Y2, applicable for the revised May 28/Hale-Bopp, the revised Y coordinate.

• Now imagine that you are up in space, well above the ecliptic where a comet is zooming upward past Jupiter, all the while moving closer to the Sun. Since the orbit for Hale-Bopp was asserted to be inside Jupiter's orbit, place this point in toward the Sun, closer in than Jupiter on May 28. USE THIS AS POINT HB-X1, applicable for May 28/Hale-Bopp, the X coordinate.

• Now imagine that you are still up in space, on the revised May 28, and see the same mythical comet in the same position between Jupiter and the Sun. To you, up in space, this point looks identical to the prior HB-X1 point. Note that the X coordinate for HB-X2 should be in the same place relative position as the HB-X1 point, except that all the Orbital Element changes have placed the leaping Hale-Bopp UPWARD, decination-wise, AWAY from Jupiter which is below it at Dec -22. However, from this angle, this is not evident. USE THIS AS POINT HB-X2, applicable for the revised May 28/Hale-Bopp, the revised X coordinate.

• Now move to the side, seeing Jupiter essentially standing still during this drama, while the mythical Hale-Bopp is moving. Place a point in the sky where Hale-Bopp appears in a cross section of the Solar System on May 28, at Dec -15. USE THIS AS POINT HB-Z1, applicable for May 28/Hale-Bopp, a 3 dimensional coordinate.

• Now while still at the side, seeing Jupiter essentially standing still, place a point in the sky where Hale-Bopp appears in a cross section of the Solar System on the revised May 28, at Dec -12. This Z coordinate should be no closer to the Sun than HB-Z1, just declination-wise, 3 arc minutes further AWAY from Jupiter having moved from Dec -15 to Dec-12 while Jupiter remains at Dec -22. USE THIS AS POINT HB-Z2, applicable for the revised May 28/Hale-Bopp.

• Now, while looking from the side, the elite angle that David Tholen is claiming HE can see but you can't, folks, draw two triangles. ONE for May 28, 1996, from HB-X1 at Dec -15, to HB-Y1 and HB-Z1. TWO for the revised May 28, 1996 from HB-X2 at Dec -12, 3 arc minutes further AWAY from Jupiter, up ABOVE Jupiter, to HB-Y2 and HB-Z2.

Now, how does the 3 dimensional view negate our statement that JPL had Hale-Bopp leaping AWAY from Jupiter, 3 arc minutes further away?
(End ZetaTalk[TM])